Ivan Mactaggart was INCOSE UK President 2016 – 2018
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EPISODE LINKS:
– INCOSE UK (to be renamed IfSE): https://INCOSEuk.org/
– Ivan’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivanmactaggart/
OUTLINE TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 – Introduction
01:59 – Experience and perspectives as INCOSE UK president.
04:36 – Priorities during his presidency
09:18 – INCOSE UK’s journey to be a Professional Engineering Institution and rename to the Institute for Systems Engineering (IfSE)
18:17 – Relationships and friendships formed in INCOSE
22:31 – Member to becoming the president of INCOSE UK
38:38 – Role of INCOSE UK in influencing engineering policy
50:10 – Ivan’s current work in rail
53:12 – Closing thoughts
SOCIAL:
– LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuasutherland
– https://www.joshuasutherland.com/
– https://www.thesystemsengineeringpodcast.com/
TRANSCRIPT:
00:00:00 Joshua Sutherland
And welcome to the Systems Engineering podcast. Today’s guest is Ivan Mctaggart.
00:00:06 Joshua Sutherland
Ivan is an innovative leader specialising in establishing cutting edge engineering capabilities from the ground up. He’s currently the head of engineering systems and digital for the East West Railway Company, which is building a new railway line running from the east to the West across southern England.
00:00:26 Joshua Sutherland
And we’ll be connecting.
00:00:28 Joshua Sutherland
Cambridge and Oxford together and I will.
00:00:30 Joshua Sutherland
Speak a little.
00:00:30 Joshua Sutherland
Bit about this in the episode, Ivan has had many senior engineering roles globally, including with MBDA and the missile company, and DSTL, which is a British.
00:00:45 Joshua Sutherland
Defence research organisation.
00:00:48 Joshua Sutherland
In today’s conversation, however, we’ll mainly be focusing on his roles he’s had with Inkosi UK, including being president in 2016 to 2018. And I think this is a good episode for understanding what it’s like to get involved with in Cody.
00:01:06 Joshua Sutherland
OK.
00:01:09 Joshua Sutherland
Just before the episode starts, reminded that if you haven’t signed up to the newsletter, you should do just go to joshuasutherland.com/newsletter and it’ll keep you up to date with the latest episodes and other things that you’ll find interesting. And there’s a free gift when you sign up, so you should do it.
00:01:29 Joshua Sutherland
And just so the free gift. So hope you enjoy the episode.
00:01:32 Joshua Sutherland
Great. So today’s guest is is Ivan. Ivan was the INCOSE UK president, 2014 to two. Oh, sorry, 2016 to 2018 and and also has a a long career in systems engineering, a range of different organisations in the UK.
00:01:53 Joshua Sutherland
Hi so welcome, Ivan.
00:01:55 Ivan Mactaggart
Good afternoon. Sorry, pleased to meet.
00:01:56 Ivan Mactaggart
You, doctor.
00:01:57
OK.
00:01:59 Joshua Sutherland
Would you be able to explain what it’s?
00:02:00 Joshua Sutherland
Like to be an INCOSE UK president and what? What you what it involved over you.
00:02:06 Ivan Mactaggart
Tenure. Well, I think, yeah, I I can explain from from my perspective, my point of view, I think the your tenure as President it’s it’s almost unique to you and and you have ideas that you want to try and execute during.
00:02:21 Ivan Mactaggart
That, that, that.
00:02:22 Ivan Mactaggart
Your tenure and each President has a different flavour of what they want to bring that was.
00:02:28 Ivan Mactaggart
Clear to me when.
00:02:29 Ivan Mactaggart
When I was present at the elect.
00:02:31 Ivan Mactaggart
And I’ve been very fortunate enough to have been exposed to council before being president-elect, because I been for you know, I’ve been honoured to be being elected by the ENCODE the UK Advisory Board as its chair for for two years prior to that. So I had an inkling of the ways of working and got an insight to a number of presidents and how they they were working, Mike.
00:02:52 Ivan Mactaggart
And Wilkinson, Alan Harding. And I think Richard, who was, you know, my immediate predecessor.
00:02:59 Ivan Mactaggart
And you know you you get so that that the two years as president electrical like gives you an opportunity to start thinking about. OK, I’ve got two years now. What do I really.
00:03:07 Ivan Mactaggart
Want to do?
00:03:07 Ivan Mactaggart
What I what? Where do I? What can I do to try and move us forward as a as a learned society?
00:03:13 Ivan Mactaggart
As that institution.
00:03:14 Ivan Mactaggart
So I can kind of probably go around what?
00:03:16 Ivan Mactaggart
My thinking was and.
00:03:18 Ivan Mactaggart
What I I.
00:03:20 Ivan Mactaggart
Wanted to try and do and and and leave thought that those those that have succeeded me since.
00:03:28 Ivan Mactaggart
Some of which is, you know, I mean we’re we’re seeing it going to some exciting new.
00:03:32 Ivan Mactaggart
Things now that that.
00:03:34 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, we’re kind of hopes of mine.
00:03:36 Ivan Mactaggart
But you, you.
00:03:37 Ivan Mactaggart
See the likes of Kirsty Wallace and and Ian Gibson and now Malcolm Thomas and you know, go forward. Andrew Pemberton. What they are going to see happen in their.
00:03:48 Ivan Mactaggart
What had happened in your errands?
00:03:49 Ivan Mactaggart
And and Malcolm’s presidency and and. And what was then happened again, Andrew?
00:03:54 Ivan Mactaggart
It’s you. You can see how we really are moving forward as a learned society and it’s.
00:04:01 Ivan Mactaggart
For me, very.
00:04:02 Ivan Mactaggart
Honouring and very humbling actually to look back and and and have been one of those that’s been fortunate enough to be asked to, you know, help move the organisation forward.
00:04:13 Ivan Mactaggart
And of course you don’t do it alone. You know you’ve got a there’s.
00:04:16 Ivan Mactaggart
An incredibly gifted set of people that fits on the Council, you know.
00:04:20 Ivan Mactaggart
And and I was very, very fortunate with those that that supported me in that time. Yeah, it’s it’s it’s not a not a it it it sometimes feels a lonely.
00:04:29 Ivan Mactaggart
Place but it but.
00:04:30 Ivan Mactaggart
Actually it’s you.
00:04:31 Ivan Mactaggart
You’ve got a lot of support there.
00:04:33 Joshua Sutherland
That that’s great to.
00:04:34 Joshua Sutherland
Hear. And what did you sort of view?
00:04:36 Joshua Sutherland
As your priorities to to get done when you were President.
00:04:41 Ivan Mactaggart
Well, my my view was that we were on the, you know.
00:04:44 Ivan Mactaggart
We we wanted.
00:04:45 Ivan Mactaggart
To sorry, let me go back a bit. Maybe that includes he had been driving for some time and real desire to.
00:04:54 Ivan Mactaggart
Really ramp up its membership and.
00:04:58 Ivan Mactaggart
That that needs certain foundations to to, to be in place.
00:05:03 Ivan Mactaggart
I think we were seeing a good trajectory for encode the UK. I think during Richard’s time, which Beasley we got over the 1000 member mark the first time and we may have even been the first chapter to get over that thousand after looking.
00:05:21 Ivan Mactaggart
But for me it it was well, OK, look, if you really want to kind of do that kind of thing and it it is, it is about maybe joining your membership.
00:05:30 Ivan Mactaggart
Or or whatever.
00:05:32 Ivan Mactaggart
You need to change the way that you might be thinking because it’s not an insignificant task and so for me that meant right, we really need to understand what our business is.
00:05:45 Ivan Mactaggart
And that might sound obvious as a learning society, it’s obviously a progression of discipline and the support people in it, but it’s not actually that obvious when you start to unpick it.
00:05:56 Ivan Mactaggart
We were, we were very stable organisation. We had a very stable financial platform, you know, huge, huge thanks there to Peter Lister, who who was still first director. You know, when I became president and had been finance director for about 15 years by the by the time he eventually decided.
00:06:15 Ivan Mactaggart
Something else has to do this.
00:06:17 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, he he left us a shoe very, very stable platform. We weren’t really not worried too much about.
00:06:24 Ivan Mactaggart
I’m on the penny financial health.
00:06:27 Ivan Mactaggart
But where did? Where did we invest? You know, where are the best places to invest? What do we really know about what we would do and where were we where we were?
00:06:34 Ivan Mactaggart
Committing those funds to me wasn’t particularly clear.
00:06:39 Ivan Mactaggart
And having come from a bit of.
00:06:40 Ivan Mactaggart
A in the past, having done a bit of.
00:06:43 Ivan Mactaggart
Business. Turn around.
00:06:44 Ivan Mactaggart
And in in in the retail motor industry and.
00:06:47 Ivan Mactaggart
In the sort.
00:06:48 Ivan Mactaggart
Of retail construction industry with a couple of very well known brands.
00:06:54 Ivan Mactaggart
One of the things I was very clear on there is you had to understand pretty much where all your money came from and where it all went.
00:07:02 Ivan Mactaggart
And that gives you an opportunity to then look and go, right, OK, where are the opportunities for us to look at maybe doing things differently? What what can we bring in in terms of things that systems engineers will will value and want to invest their money or their if they’ve gotta pay their own membership or their company’s money, if the company supports that membership?
00:07:22 Ivan Mactaggart
There’s gotta be something for them in it otherwise.
00:07:25 Ivan Mactaggart
Why do it?
00:07:26 Ivan Mactaggart
The other thing was to try and sort of create opportunities for people to volunteer to do.
00:07:32 Ivan Mactaggart
Things that, that, that.
00:07:33 Ivan Mactaggart
You heard about enough to want to go and spend their spare time doing.
00:07:38 Ivan Mactaggart
Or or indeed.
00:07:40 Ivan Mactaggart
And convince their employers that it would be very, very much being employers benefit to to get engaged with. So you know that that was kind of my underpinning saying I wanted to be in a position where I I handed over a platform, you know, I mean I work in infrastructure and.
00:07:54 Ivan Mactaggart
At the moment, so if you take one infrastructure, I wanted a really solid set of foundations.
00:07:59 Ivan Mactaggart
That we could then.
00:08:00 Ivan Mactaggart
Leap forward on.
00:08:03 Ivan Mactaggart
The the key thing in doing that to me though was is there was one thing above all that we would have to achieve at some point.
00:08:10 Ivan Mactaggart
That we had to do, but we had to add the business since first because it was part.
00:08:14 Ivan Mactaggart
Of the journey.
00:08:14 Ivan Mactaggart
And that and that was we had to become a professional engineering institution in our own rights to be licenced in our own right rather than being affiliate. That was really clear to me. And it was clear to me, you know, we did some great work and I think Mike Wilkinson led this.
00:08:30 Ivan Mactaggart
In his time of of becoming an affiliate and offering members the opportunity to to become chartered and.
00:08:36 Ivan Mactaggart
That that, that was a significant event and and there was always the desire.
00:08:42 Ivan Mactaggart
In Mikes Council and and in Allana’s and just, you know, those between Mike and myself, she wants to eventually make that step and become a fully licenced member of the Engineering Council and a PIR, right?
00:08:58 Ivan Mactaggart
But you you have to achieve some certain things in order for the Engineering Council to to get through their their their, you know their their quite.
00:09:11 Ivan Mactaggart
And rightly rigorous procedure, and one of those is actually having a phone business.
00:09:15 Joshua Sutherland
Yeah, I’m not right be vigorous.
00:09:18 Joshua Sutherland
It’s important in the sense you.
00:09:20 Joshua Sutherland
Don’t want people just setting up institutions that have an approval on their they’re not.
00:09:23
Yeah, no.
00:09:27 Ivan Mactaggart
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are three criteria is, you know, having for business on standing firm, on stand your risk from financial footing. You have to prove all those things. And I’ve been lucky enough that I’d.
00:09:28 Joshua Sutherland
They’re not worth you.
00:09:42 Ivan Mactaggart
I helped to steer through and I say helped. You know he and Preston was the professional development director at the time. Unfortunately couldn’t attend our reaccreditation as affiliate one year and I had.
00:09:55 Ivan Mactaggart
The incredible support of.
00:09:56 Ivan Mactaggart
Of Lynn Davis and the you know, professional development manager at DOT, the I and and those folk.
00:10:02 Ivan Mactaggart
To to help me, but we we, we, together, steered through the reaccreditation and during.
00:10:08 Ivan Mactaggart
That that reaccreditation the Engineering Council sends one of their people, they send a a chair of a licencing panel there, and after backing out, was invited to.
00:10:20 Ivan Mactaggart
Apply to join the Engineering Council as a quality Assurance Committee member, which actually did and then served for six years. In fact, I only stood down earlier this year as April of this year that I finally stood down from that, but it taught me.
00:10:34 Ivan Mactaggart
All the things I needed to know, all we needed to know in in cosy to be able to make that leap. So you know, I was chairing licencing panels of some of the big institutions. I won’t name them because of confidentiality. But you know, I was chairing, you know the the I was the panel chair for one of our major institutions and a couple of the smaller ones.
00:10:55 Ivan Mactaggart
As well. So it gave me a really good insight.
00:10:57 Ivan Mactaggart
To what we had to do.
00:10:59 Ivan Mactaggart
That because I was leading the the challenge, if you like, to the institution trying to get through and then coupled with the work that Kirsty, Rachel Wallace then did, who succeeded me as President and who did all the hard yards from the cosy point in getting us through. She was president by lesson. We actually put the licencing through. So for me it was about getting the foundations.
00:11:20 Ivan Mactaggart
Right. And allowing that step to happen, if that’s what the Members wanted to do and the Council wanted to do.
00:11:29 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, and that and that then Kirsty led and did pretty much all we were actually did pretty.
00:11:35 Ivan Mactaggart
Much did a.
00:11:35 Ivan Mactaggart
Lot of the legwork in writing all of our processes. You know, I helped to review that and then working with the the Institute explosives, the Expo to to have a joint model that.
00:11:49 Ivan Mactaggart
The the reason for going to joint model is when you’re smaller institution, it’s difficult to prove to the Engineering Council you’ve got a bandwidth from the volunteer pool to support all the things you need to do. So the engineering Council put a proposition to us that we might want to think about a joint board and and we duly did that. We sat down, we thought about it. We thought it was.
00:12:10 Ivan Mactaggart
The idea and and and ultimately it was and it’s led to, you know, Kirsty Bannister. That’s where I was with Kirsty when we attended the Engineering Council for that, that that review and and I have the assessment of our application and.
00:12:24 Ivan Mactaggart
It it was quite, it was quite rigorous. It needs to be I what I was like as a chair. So, but, you know subsequently.
00:12:33 Ivan Mactaggart
You know Kirsty was able to announce at the conference that.
00:12:36 Ivan Mactaggart
Year that we.
00:12:37 Ivan Mactaggart
Were now at last Pi and then Ian took that further forward. So you know for me it was.
00:12:46 Ivan Mactaggart
Can I get us to somewhere where we can start to build these things up? And the reason it’s important, Josh, the reason it is really important to be Pi, it’s not just about.
00:12:59 Ivan Mactaggart
Professional registration to members, which is incredibly important and as a real driver for people wanting to be a member, you know, engineers want that recognition they want to, they want to achieve that gold standard, which is, you know, the registration process, whether it’s incorporated, chartered or, you know, engineering technician for that matter. Engineers want to do that. It’s it’s, you know.
00:13:19 Ivan Mactaggart
Accolade given by your peers, but what it does for the institution as well is it gives it a voice that you don’t get unless you are one of the last school licensees.
00:13:31 Ivan Mactaggart
And what we what we’ve been able to be since is you know we we now have a voice in the national Engineering Policy Centre that is coordinated by the Royal Academy for Engineering and that brings all of the PI’s together to give a collective voice for engineering. So we we we’re.
00:13:46 Ivan Mactaggart
Now on that table.
00:13:49 Ivan Mactaggart
And so you, you and and you know the next step of that is then right to look how do we then take our small institution and make it this this thing that.
00:14:00 Ivan Mactaggart
But really is, you know, we all see ourselves as that, that full frontal systems enter in the UK. But the reality of it is, is there are still far more systems engineers sitting in the IT or other institutions than are in Code UK will seems to actually move. And I think the next step.
00:14:16 Ivan Mactaggart
But you know Ian Gibson picked off and he’s still leading under under Malcolm stewardship now and we’ve seen the vote go to the to the Institute for Systems Engineers will come up.
00:14:26 Ivan Mactaggart
And again you.
00:14:26 Ivan Mactaggart
Know it’s not about cutting my ties and cosy far from it. It we we can still cement.
00:14:31 Ivan Mactaggart
That we’re still part of that global network.
00:14:34 Ivan Mactaggart
But what that does is it enables us to to generate even more benefit for a UK member. We can start looking at fellowships, which is slightly different to the way in Cody does it in the UK. You can apply a royal charter. You you the potential is to see chartered systems engineers.
00:14:52 Ivan Mactaggart
Going forward. So for me it and it wasn’t necessarily about achieving that RC or you know, I didn’t particularly think about too many oceans, but it was for me about.
00:15:03 Ivan Mactaggart
Putting that set of that sperm concrete foundations in there, that meant we could start to really achieve some significant things and get get the the institution recognised in the UK as an institution. That’s that’s perhaps not equal in numbers, but it’s equal in terms of.
00:15:24 Ivan Mactaggart
Status and standing.
00:15:26 Ivan Mactaggart
For systems engineers with the UK focus, but without.
00:15:29 Ivan Mactaggart
Breaking it up, international.
00:15:33 Ivan Mactaggart
That, that, that international link and you know again with Ian, Ian Gibson was instrumental in leading this, you know, during my time it’s renegotiating the MU that we did, we we had re encoded at that time which gave us a better return on the membership fee.
00:15:47 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, so it was that that was all about for me. It was, it really was about foundations, which I probably witted done.
00:15:53 Ivan Mactaggart
Long enough about now.
00:15:55 Joshua Sutherland
That’s really fascinating because often these sort of foundational pieces, you know, but literally the foundations of a building, we don’t see them, but of course are, you know, super important or the building collapses and.
00:16:05 Ivan Mactaggart
So I’m probably gonna miss actually, cause I should bring out another couple of things that I thought were absolutely fantastic that they have nothing to do with me. They were my ideas, if anything, probably I create a condition where they could come, if at all. But what’s also happening. So I was incredibly proud that he chose to do this during what I was John Holt coming up with the.
00:16:06 Joshua Sutherland
Seeing something?
00:16:28 Ivan Mactaggart
The guys that the there is a guy.
00:16:30 Ivan Mactaggart
Books that he has done and.
00:16:32 Ivan Mactaggart
That that series of.
00:16:34 Ivan Mactaggart
Books. Now he’s got bigger, more publications. You know, he started off with think engineering richest time and then had this idea of those like mini systems engineer.
00:16:44 Joshua Sutherland
Ohh the panic. Don’t panic but.
00:16:46 Ivan Mactaggart
Where they don’t panics and to have that launched during that time was, you know, it was an incredibly good feeling because it.
00:16:54 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, we, we we were at the significance of that was we were starting. We’ve really got a handle publishing and being able to publish our own stuff and how that worked and we could do that because we understood the money. We bluntly we understood the money, understood it better and and again thanks to Peter List his work.
00:17:14 Ivan Mactaggart
That we are able to do that so you know an incredibly great time to be involved, a fantastic time to be to be president. There were some hard arts, there were some really hard yards, you know, we had there were some.
00:17:29 Ivan Mactaggart
You know very.
00:17:30 Ivan Mactaggart
Very late nights around some of that, you know, I think some of the latest nights were probably post presidency when, you know, I was trying to help Kirsty with getting the process sets together to to apply for the Pi. But but you know.
00:17:44 Ivan Mactaggart
Yeah, I mean it.
00:17:46 Ivan Mactaggart
It was a fantastic time. I’m I’m.
00:17:49 Ivan Mactaggart
Very, very honoured to have been.
00:17:51 Ivan Mactaggart
President of encourage UK and I was very honoured to have been President in a particular time slot. I I was in.
00:18:00 Joshua Sutherland
That’s that’s really great to hear.
00:18:02 Joshua Sutherland
I think.
00:18:03 Joshua Sutherland
What what it sounds like there’s been a lot of, as you say, sort of foundational work that is aiming to get in cosy UK. Or should we be calling the Institute for Systems Engineering? Yeah. OK.
00:18:13 Ivan Mactaggart
We will be not quite there.
00:18:15 Ivan Mactaggart
But will be.
00:18:16
And you know.
00:18:17 Ivan Mactaggart
Looking forward to that being announced.
00:18:19 Joshua Sutherland
Yeah, I’ve got the the flyer, so.
00:18:22 Ivan Mactaggart
Yeah, I mean it’s.
00:18:23 Joshua Sutherland
It’s on this one.
00:18:24 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, I think it’s great news and and you know the work that that Ian Gibson and others, you know Don, you know to get us there. And Malcolm Thomas and you know Andrew.
00:18:34 Ivan Mactaggart
Will take you forward.
00:18:35 Ivan Mactaggart
And what we would say as well is that these guys are all great friends of mine. You know, they, they, you know, Richard Beasley, were a top bloke and a great friend, you know, was a guest at my wedding, a number of systems engineers that gets at my on my wedding 7-8 years ago. Eight years ago now nearly. You know Malcolm I see quite regularly we we’re working on the same project.
00:18:56 Ivan Mactaggart
At the moment.
00:18:58 Ivan Mactaggart
And you know Ian, Ian and I have our paths have crossed quite a lot since. And Andrew and I used to work together a WWE many years ago. So it’s a quite nice family and and it’s it’s, it’s fabulous, you know.
00:19:08 Ivan Mactaggart
Alan Harding and I.
00:19:09 Ivan Mactaggart
You used to touch one very, very regularly. And Mike Wilkinson life passed, crossed in professional life from time to time as well. So you, you.
00:19:19 Ivan Mactaggart
And and and that’s just the, that’s just the immediate past presence. It’s, you know, if I look at the, you know, John Holt has been a like it’s been a friend of mine for well over 10 years now. You know, along with Simon and John was the 1st.
00:19:32 Ivan Mactaggart
Person I really got to know when I joined in COSI and and in cosy. OK and I consider him to be a a very dear and good friend and and along with others. Hazel, Hazel, Alcock, who’s comms director, in fact Hazel and I was Hazel. Had an.
00:19:49 Ivan Mactaggart
Idea to take a.
00:19:50 Ivan Mactaggart
A panel session to IS and Dublin.
00:19:53 Ivan Mactaggart
Next year and has invited me to to be part of that.
00:19:56 Ivan Mactaggart
Panel so yeah.
00:19:57 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, it’s it. It’s it’s a fantastic.
00:20:00 Ivan Mactaggart
Thing to be and and you make.
00:20:02 Ivan Mactaggart
Huge amounts of friends around that table.
00:20:06 Joshua Sutherland
Yeah. Yeah. No, that that’s great to hear. So I think any person who was wanting to get involved with in kosu, OK, they would find it to be a a friendly and welcoming place.
00:20:16 Ivan Mactaggart
It it is it.
00:20:17 Ivan Mactaggart
Is it has been for me. I’ve I’ve found it, you know, to be a fantastic, fantastic organisation. It’s not where it’s challenges. Organisations have challenges, you know, let’s.
00:20:26 Ivan Mactaggart
Not. Let’s not everything is rosy. Every single day. There’s some tough things to do.
00:20:32 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, you know.
00:20:32 Ivan Mactaggart
When you are.
00:20:34 Ivan Mactaggart
And it will become more so with the IFC, to be honest, because the the the rules change the.
00:20:39 Ivan Mactaggart
Way that you.
00:20:40 Ivan Mactaggart
We’re we’re registered in the United Kingdom as a business changes. But you know, you you one of.
00:20:44 Ivan Mactaggart
The things you have to.
00:20:45 Ivan Mactaggart
Realise when you are President is you have a legal obligation for a duty and cancel the business. There is a legal accountability.
00:20:54 Ivan Mactaggart
You know you are a director.
00:20:55 Ivan Mactaggart
Registered at Companies House along with the president-elect.
00:20:58 Ivan Mactaggart
The immediate past president, the.
00:21:00 Ivan Mactaggart
Finance director and and and and and.
00:21:02 Ivan Mactaggart
The company secretary. So you.
00:21:04 Ivan Mactaggart
Know it is. It was.
00:21:06 Ivan Mactaggart
It was never lost on me that there was there was a degree of responsibility.
00:21:09 Ivan Mactaggart
That came with that.
00:21:11 Ivan Mactaggart
Not, not just about having a file and pushing systems engineering, you know? So part of the drive for the foundation as well as you know recognising as you yeah, quite frankly.
00:21:20 Joshua Sutherland
Yes, yes, yes, exists. And you’re also, so you’re you’re building on something that has been handed to you from another generation of a person. And we have a responsibility to care for that.
00:21:31 Ivan Mactaggart
Yeah, I mean, you know, tracing all the way back to Derek Hitchens, you know the very
00:21:34 Ivan Mactaggart
Very President, you know he, he.
00:21:36 Ivan Mactaggart
He, you know, Bill Barlow and and and those guys that, that that came together to found it back then you know had that horse right so.
00:21:43 Ivan Mactaggart
Look, there’s something.
00:21:43 Ivan Mactaggart
Here that that we believe that.
00:21:46 Ivan Mactaggart
There’s a UK there’s there’s a compelling reason to try and create a.
00:21:50 Ivan Mactaggart
UK chapter here.
00:21:53 Ivan Mactaggart
And and and look at and you look at how it’s grown and adapted from like.
00:21:56 Ivan Mactaggart
From those beginnings.
00:21:58 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, yeah, there is a there’s a strong legacy and you know, I looked down that list of Presidents and.
00:22:04 Ivan Mactaggart
And and you know, I I I I feel that I’m in in hallowed company quite frankly. And sometimes wonder how the hell did I manage to get be in that company but it but you but I was and and and I’m.
00:22:17 Ivan Mactaggart
But, but you’re right that that legacy is, is is incredible actually. And and you think of what each President has done and move forward and how we how we grown it’s it it’s fantastic.
00:22:30 Ivan Mactaggart
What was your your?
00:22:31 Joshua Sutherland
Journey from presumably at some point you you joined in, cosy as a member and then you you rose to be the the the president. What? What is the the stepping stones you took?
00:22:42 Ivan Mactaggart
Well, it wasn’t planned that I can tell you it’s it’s. I joined in cosy.
00:22:50 Ivan Mactaggart
I’m quite late on. I actually came into systems engineering as we would understand it from an ecosy perspective quite late on actually. There’s only really in the sort of late 2000s around 2008, really where I can really came across it at that time.
00:23:08 Ivan Mactaggart
I’ve been really assistant practitioner of my my earlier academic thinking. Was our system thinking system practise and he’s still liking inform from that, but I I was a systems engineer at a WWE and.
00:23:27 Ivan Mactaggart
The responsible for the the leading the engineering component within living our soccer management within the AW at that time.
00:23:37 Ivan Mactaggart
And promoting systems engineering and systems are your processes and I was asked by our chief engineer.
00:23:45 Ivan Mactaggart
To take over our U CAP Rep spot from one of our senior engineers who was becoming who? Who’s gonna move on to become, I think head of.
00:23:56 Ivan Mactaggart
One of our engineering divisions at that time.
00:23:59 Ivan Mactaggart
She was gonna gonna and and.
00:24:01 Ivan Mactaggart
Fundamentally, as a group, they wouldn’t have had the the.
00:24:03 Ivan Mactaggart
The plan, what to do it?
00:24:05 Ivan Mactaggart
So Chief and you asked me if.
00:24:06 Ivan Mactaggart
I would take it off. It wasn’t really an ask. It was more of a talent, quite frankly. But it wasn’t something that.
00:24:12 Ivan Mactaggart
I was averse to.
00:24:14 Ivan Mactaggart
Bluntly, I was very, very happy to.
00:24:15 Ivan Mactaggart
Go and do that.
00:24:17 Ivan Mactaggart
So I, you know, I went from being a member lay member to being our Rep probably within a year or so of joining.
00:24:26 Ivan Mactaggart
I think I’d attended one conference by then or something like that, I said 2010. I think it was. I think first conference I went to.
00:24:35 Ivan Mactaggart
And then you know, I was asked to to to become the Ucab representative.
00:24:41 Ivan Mactaggart
And then when Chris Lamb, who was the UK chair at the time, again another, another long standing friend Chris Horse standing down from that role, decided to move on and stand.
00:24:54 Ivan Mactaggart
Down from that role.
00:24:56 Ivan Mactaggart
I was looking around for.
00:24:58 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, there’s a few folks that.
00:24:59 Ivan Mactaggart
Said, you know, why don’t you clear it?
00:25:01 Ivan Mactaggart
I’m I wanna speak if I get involved in something. I’ve gotta get involved in it and I kind of got involved.
00:25:05 Ivan Mactaggart
In in in the UK, quite quite a bit and and subsequently I was elected and and it was an election year it it wasn’t a dummy election. Yeah, it it was contested and probably quite close. Like I seem to recall. I’m.
00:25:20 Ivan Mactaggart
Not, not really.
00:25:20 Ivan Mactaggart
Sure. But yeah. Anyways, you know, I’ve.
00:25:23 Ivan Mactaggart
Elected as you catch it.
00:25:27 Ivan Mactaggart
Towards the back end of that time, selected for two year process and.
00:25:34 Ivan Mactaggart
Towards the back. In that time I moved I.
00:25:36 Ivan Mactaggart
Moved from A.
00:25:36 Ivan Mactaggart
W to the STL new change direction, new change career, and it’s time for me to move on. I wasn’t EU CAP work at the STL, but just one one of our other principals and.
00:25:50 Ivan Mactaggart
I really thought much about it other than, you know, being a bailing member and and and enjoying and still enjoying it.
00:25:58 Ivan Mactaggart
The two things then happened.
00:26:01 Ivan Mactaggart
UM.
00:26:03 Ivan Mactaggart
I was asked on my sort of first week in DST. Alright, it’s.
00:26:08 Ivan Mactaggart
A cosy UK stuff.
00:26:10 Ivan Mactaggart
You’re coming off saying that. What more can you do that it sounds like a thing we should be interested in.
00:26:14 Ivan Mactaggart
I said, well, we’ve already got.
00:26:15 Ivan Mactaggart
A Rep in there, you know Professor Bob Mahler. It was a time of staying up some.
00:26:20 Ivan Mactaggart
You know Bob.
00:26:20 Ivan Mactaggart
Mahal, one of those two.
00:26:23 Ivan Mactaggart
And it was well, you know, I.
00:26:24 Ivan Mactaggart
Said well.
00:26:25 Ivan Mactaggart
The presidential elections coming up.
00:26:28 Ivan Mactaggart
I I probably could have stab at that.
00:26:30 Ivan Mactaggart
Think do you know I might have some reasonable support that coincided with a couple of colleagues from the UK and folks who’ve been on Council cause it’s U cap chair. You’re a member of the Council saying look, why don’t you stand? We’d support you. And I said I thought, well, OK, alright. So I I said to to.
00:26:50 Ivan Mactaggart
It was our delivery chief in in DSL.
00:26:52 Ivan Mactaggart
So, well, Mars, I.
00:26:53 Ivan Mactaggart
Said look, this could happen. I’ve got.
00:26:54 Ivan Mactaggart
A bit of support I.
00:26:55 Ivan Mactaggart
I’ve I’ve got some good support within the the Advisory Board. You know, I think I’ve got a good start at this and he said well.
00:27:03 Ivan Mactaggart
What would you need? I said, well, I’d need X amount of days a year and I need to TS. It’s probably gonna come.
00:27:08 Ivan Mactaggart
To this this number.
00:27:10 Ivan Mactaggart
Anyway, he just said well, either go do it.
00:27:12 Ivan Mactaggart
And if you get elected, I’ll.
00:27:13 Ivan Mactaggart
Find the money and and and.
00:27:16 Ivan Mactaggart
That happened and.
00:27:17 Ivan Mactaggart
And and the rest you say.
00:27:18 Ivan Mactaggart
Is history, so you know.
00:27:19 Ivan Mactaggart
It was, it wasn’t planned.
00:27:22 Ivan Mactaggart
And and interesting as well is that I wasn’t ever sure I win the election. It was a.
00:27:27 Ivan Mactaggart
Three-way.
00:27:27 Ivan Mactaggart
Election against 2IN, you know, as myself and two incredibly strong candidates who both of them made incredible presence. I think you know David Venner, kinetic and and and Alan Merchant, who who had socks and optic.
00:27:43 Ivan Mactaggart
You know those those guys were you?
00:27:45 Ivan Mactaggart
Know they’re very, very good.
00:27:46 Ivan Mactaggart
Leaders. So it was, you know, it’s it.
00:27:50 Ivan Mactaggart
Far from giving in my mind, in fact, far from it. Yeah, I thought. Yeah. But, you know, if I come closer, that’s probably OK, you know? But no. Yeah. I’m. I’m.
00:28:00 Ivan Mactaggart
What happened happened and then, you know, I I found out. And the next day I sort of.
00:28:06 Ivan Mactaggart
Sat down with Emma Jane Taylor at Doctor I just headed sectarian. My mind no go like, what do I what do I need to know? Tell me a lot, you know. And. And and it was at that point I thought, right. Yeah. I need to go and understand all this a lot more. And and and and. Funny enough, I spent that Christmas then.
00:28:26 Ivan Mactaggart
Very sadly, I say an empty in an empty house around the dining room table.
00:28:36 Ivan Mactaggart
Reading the memorandum and articles of association registered at company House and all the other stuff like the MCU with with, with it goes and everything. Just want to understand how this how this thing works.
00:28:51 Joshua Sutherland
Yeah, yeah, I mean it. It does.
00:28:54 Joshua Sutherland
It’s certainly very healthy for the organisation that that, that these elections are contested and that there are great candidates there and that it is in.
00:29:01 Joshua Sutherland
Just, you know, searching around for somebody to do it, that actually people, multiple people want to do it.
00:29:07 Ivan Mactaggart
Yeah, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve been there a couple of times and and and that is that’s that’s the one of the you know.
00:29:14 Ivan Mactaggart
One of the things we we still got to resolve somehow is how do we get people?
00:29:19 Ivan Mactaggart
To want to stand we, we we do get people that do want to stand, you know, don’t get me wrong, we do. And even in some of the years where we’ve only really ended up with a single candidate there.
00:29:28 Ivan Mactaggart
Have been others that have looked at it.
00:29:31 Ivan Mactaggart
But there is, you know it.
00:29:33 Ivan Mactaggart
It comes with a lot of sacrifice, you know. You you you’re there for. It’s six year commitment.
00:29:41 Ivan Mactaggart
You know you’re 2 years as president-elect for two years as president. You’re there two years as the immediate past president. The burden goes down as immediate past president, honestly. But it but you still it there’s still an expectation and you’ve committed to the membership to do stuff you’ve committed to.
00:29:57 Ivan Mactaggart
Encode the UK.
00:29:58 Ivan Mactaggart
You’ve committed to the Council members to lead it effectively.
00:30:01 Ivan Mactaggart
The other thing is you’re committed to encouraging internationally to support various things. That’s part of the Memorandum of understanding. So it is not an insignificant.
00:30:14 Ivan Mactaggart
Challenge and it’s, you know, it comes at you know you you have.
00:30:19 Ivan Mactaggart
To you have to have.
00:30:20 Ivan Mactaggart
An ability of an employer that’s willing.
00:30:22 Ivan Mactaggart
To support it, you know, I think I calculated.
00:30:25 Ivan Mactaggart
But I would need something like 50 days and then actually wasn’t really. May I give 22 Franklin Harding there. He he did. He did a full on business case when he stood for president and very, very kindly shared with me some of the thinking around numbers when he thought. And and I wasn’t able to do that myself.
00:30:45 Ivan Mactaggart
So yeah, I think it calculated out I would need something like 50 odd days which would be split from some of my time. Some I’d need from from DSL, you know, originally.
00:30:56 Ivan Mactaggart
And then you know, we need to do conference attendance this TNS, this Council to attend. This was all pre sort of COVID and and certainly pre this kind of thing being regular formats but we we didn’t have vertical meetings back then we didn’t have the.
00:31:14 Ivan Mactaggart
Capacity to do.
00:31:16 Ivan Mactaggart
So you know, so I think it was something like.
00:31:19 Ivan Mactaggart
50 odd days.
00:31:22 Ivan Mactaggart
Lot of further travel there is an expectation from Ecosy that you’ll support IS or IW or both where you can. So that’s you know there’s a week in the states, twice a year or or a week in the states for IW and then.
00:31:37 Ivan Mactaggart
Generally like there there are unused and that have to go to all of them. But you know there is kind of an expectation you’ll you’ll get support to do symposiums and because you are you know you’re you’re representing encouraging UK and at that point being so there is kind of expectation for that.
00:31:56 Joshua Sutherland
And with that sort of representation, because there are all these members in the UK and they.
00:32:00 Joshua Sutherland
Need their guy?
00:32:02 Joshua Sutherland
Who? Who is representing them over there?
00:32:04 Ivan Mactaggart
Yeah, absolutely. And and and you know.
00:32:09 Ivan Mactaggart
Sometimes you kind of have to impress on other chapters and and and and press upon the centre. The central organisation that.
00:32:20 Ivan Mactaggart
That the the MU chapters, the international chapters.
00:32:23 Ivan Mactaggart
Are are, are, are a.
00:32:24 Ivan Mactaggart
Bit unique, they are very different from the way that you can.
00:32:30 Ivan Mactaggart
Or would lead an American chapter. Now that’s that’s kind of understood, but it’s it’s much better understood now. You know the employee certainly with the employment of the you know, my full time CEO, she’s office typed in that that that that they’ve got now. But I remember having conversations with an S.
00:32:51 Ivan Mactaggart
At one point with with someone who will very much remain known, this or someone listeners might may know who it is.
00:32:59 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, I was asked. Well, you know, why do you need to create money in the UK? Why do you need to do that? Everything down here? I well, no, it’s not so you know you are on the West Coast United States, you’re 8 to 10 hours behind us. You know. How’s that any use to somebody?
00:33:12 Ivan Mactaggart
Based in the UK on.
00:33:13 Ivan Mactaggart
A day to.
00:33:13 Ivan Mactaggart
Day basis, it isn’t, you know, so there’s certain things we have to provide the UK certain things our Members.
00:33:18 Ivan Mactaggart
Once in the United Kingdom, we have a relationship with different professional institutions in a different way that you do over.
00:33:25 Ivan Mactaggart
Drop the ship.
00:33:26 Ivan Mactaggart
It’s called professional engineer in the United States. It’s it’s, although it’s the kind of an equivalent. It’s done very differently in the UK to the the way it is the.
00:33:33 Ivan Mactaggart
United States so.
00:33:34 Ivan Mactaggart
The the the other thing is that in cosy.
00:33:37 Ivan Mactaggart
In the United States runs the taxpayers the chapters.
00:33:39 Ivan Mactaggart
For it, now we have to do our own.
00:33:42 Ivan Mactaggart
So you know, there’s the things you just have to do differently. And the larger you come.
00:33:47 Ivan Mactaggart
The more of that.
00:33:48 Ivan Mactaggart
You have to kind of have availability, availability.
00:33:51 Ivan Mactaggart
So sometimes, yeah there is.
00:33:53 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, once you get on it and it is, it is a meeting of friends. You know, I was incredibly luckily.
00:33:58 Ivan Mactaggart
Who have coincided with most of Gary Rodler’s time, for example, and and and Dave.
00:34:02 Ivan Mactaggart
Long time and and Alan’s longtime, of course, you know, during my on the chapter and in President and and they they they were very good relationships, but sometimes you gotta have a strong.
00:34:13 Ivan Mactaggart
Conversation, you know? Yeah.
00:34:16 Joshua Sutherland
And that sort of.
00:34:18 Joshua Sutherland
Public facing. So you know a a government minister or an MP or.
00:34:22 Joshua Sutherland
You know BBC News like these types of organisations when they, you know, they don’t know what systems engineering is and they think they need to speak to someone to to give a statement for a sort of news item and things. But to me, I think it is very important.
00:34:35 Joshua Sutherland
That the local chapters or the the country based chapters.
00:34:39 Joshua Sutherland
Talk in a language.
00:34:41 Joshua Sutherland
And use terms in a way that they are familiar with and can map you to yeah, into your Mechanical Engineers or or these other institutions.
00:34:50 Ivan Mactaggart
Yeah. And I think you you. So you hit on.
00:34:52 Ivan Mactaggart
A hit on a a thing.
00:34:53 Ivan Mactaggart
There that I think we.
00:34:55 Ivan Mactaggart
Need to embrace it sometime and and the the IFC concept will better enable this in my opinion which while there is I really thought of it, we’ve always struggled with how do we deal with matters of policy in the UK. And I don’t mean about encouraging your systems here.
00:35:13 Ivan Mactaggart
Policy but engineering policy in the UK, how do we get that influence? How do we how do we put our policy statement that comes from us as an institution rather than being seen to be the expression of the individual at present and the organisation that they come from? So we have to be on par with the rest of the UK institutions.
00:35:33 Ivan Mactaggart
To do that, so good leap forward. Yeah, we get invoice now through the through the national Engineering Policy Centre, of course with the Royal Academy of Engineering. But us as a collective.
00:35:43 Ivan Mactaggart
That means the president signs the letter with all of the other API presidents, and that’s a fantastic thing that’s really good. That’s the first bit of, you know, saying look, we have credibility, look, look who we are sitting with, who we’re talking with, you know this is the kind of influence we’re now loading. But if you really want to start.
00:36:02 Ivan Mactaggart
Going to next.
00:36:03 Ivan Mactaggart
Level. You’ve gotta think about what as a as a UK engineering institution that represents systems engineering in.
00:36:11 Ivan Mactaggart
We can. What is the policy that we want to present to politicians, to the rest of industry, you know, do we have that central policy? How are we gonna create that? How do we think about how we might want to put specific systems engineering advice to a minister?
00:36:32 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, I I was very fortunate enough couple of years ago now to write to my local MP following something with the Royal Academy of Engineering and got airtime with Greg Smith up in Buckingham supporter and our engineering and almost test probably a little bit.
00:36:51 Ivan Mactaggart
But you’ve got to have that clear idea in your head about what your policy is, what what the systems engineers care about, what do they want to see government doing. And again, you, you you can’t do that from a point of view where you might seem to be something that’s just a a small boat or.
00:37:10 Ivan Mactaggart
Something that’s wrong entirely from the United States in COSY has incredible influence in the United States. Incredible interest in.
00:37:20 Ivan Mactaggart
Us this has.
00:37:21 Ivan Mactaggart
Got good influence globally, you know, you know.
00:37:22 Ivan Mactaggart
Don’t get me wrong.
00:37:24 Ivan Mactaggart
There’s there is.
00:37:25 Ivan Mactaggart
A delta, I think when it comes to wanting to truly influence.
00:37:31 Ivan Mactaggart
Engineering policy or trying to influence government to take a A policy and industrial policy far more seriously. UK trade industrial policy, yeah.
00:37:43 Ivan Mactaggart
And we need to, you know, we need to drive government to change that. It’s not something government really.
00:37:47 Ivan Mactaggart
Thinks too much about the.
00:37:49 Ivan Mactaggart
Department of Business we work on on whatever guys it is at any one time is in my opinion.
00:37:56 Ivan Mactaggart
Backward. In doing that, it seemed reluctant to want to do it. But you know, come on, you know.
00:38:02 Ivan Mactaggart
This is a notion of creators, you know, only startups we’ve got going on. We we could start up tonnes of things.
00:38:08 Ivan Mactaggart
With brilliant ideas.
00:38:09 Ivan Mactaggart
In this colour, it’s getting those startups to scale up and then into leveraging that that technology and building it here that we don’t really do well with kinds of topples off and and I speak from the experience of having been in one that that kind of.
00:38:21 Ivan Mactaggart
Went down that trajectory for a while.
00:38:24 Joshua Sutherland
Yeah. And then sort of providing that expertise to like if if your your average MP, I think they they have a law degree and you know that that’s fine. And but being that person who can whisper in the ear.
00:38:38 Joshua Sutherland
Advice, that is, you know, based on maybe our way of thinking or more systems engineering across.
00:38:43 Ivan Mactaggart
Some things coming. You know, there’s some. There’s some light in the tunnel towards right towards the end of my total presidency. I I was I I received a number of calls, personal calls, but nonetheless they were coming to me personally but albeit but.
00:38:58 Ivan Mactaggart
Because I’ve had exposure as, as in case UK president, let’s be, let’s be blunt.
00:39:03 Ivan Mactaggart
Asking me about, you know, what was what was my view on system thinking? How could we inject it into government? What examples could we say? Well, systemic thought was helping things, for example.
00:39:13 Ivan Mactaggart
And so those opportunities come, it will be, it will be great to see in cosy UK Institute for Systems Engineering start to develop those policies that say yeah see this is what we really want to see. This is how we want to see.
00:39:29 Ivan Mactaggart
Things coming into schools, I wanna start seeing systems and new modules in academia, those kind of.
00:39:34 Ivan Mactaggart
Things you know.
00:39:37 Joshua Sutherland
Yeah, that’s really good. And then you mentioned that DSTL were almost encouraging you to get to become president. What benefits, where were they seeing for that though, why would they?
00:39:50 Joshua Sutherland
Sort of want to invest essentially be paying.
00:39:53 Joshua Sutherland
Your salary, but.
00:39:54 Joshua Sutherland
You are off supporting in Code UK.
00:39:57 Ivan Mactaggart
So, DSR for for any listener that that might not know is the defence science and Technology laboratory. It’s it’s an agency within UK MOD and it’s.
00:40:08 Ivan Mactaggart
Kind of almost. It’s an internal critical eye on some of the stuff that MOD does. It also supports other government departments as well. I was looking up and work with our government departments in my in my relatively short time, though now it’s it’s it’s.
00:40:23
All about.
00:40:25 Ivan Mactaggart
The UK PLC in many respects so.
00:40:28 Ivan Mactaggart
DSL encourages and and as you sort of get more senior roles almost demands you to engage with academia with industry.
00:40:37 Ivan Mactaggart
They were the professional jurisdictions. They want you to be chartered if you’re an engineer.
00:40:42 Ivan Mactaggart
They want you to.
00:40:43 Ivan Mactaggart
Be charted, having it for, for operational analysis and things like.
00:40:47 Ivan Mactaggart
That they want you.
00:40:47 Ivan Mactaggart
To be that and there’s a couple.
00:40:49 Ivan Mactaggart
Of reasons for.
00:40:49 Ivan Mactaggart
That one that it demonstrates their support to you growing as an engineer, analyst or scientist.
00:40:56 Ivan Mactaggart
One of your profession.
00:40:58 Ivan Mactaggart
Secondly, it demonstrates to the UK PLC the competence of the workforce.
00:41:06 Ivan Mactaggart
If you have got nearly. If you if only.
00:41:08 Ivan Mactaggart
Your senior engineers.
00:41:09 Ivan Mactaggart
Your engineering fellows, whatever that all chartered engineers. It’s telling you something about the competence of like group.
00:41:17 Ivan Mactaggart
I’m gonna wait. You’d expect accountants to be chartered, wouldn’t you know? Some like. And that’s the expectation. So it it’s it’s it’s a way of saying back to the public and to the politicians whose money it is that, you know, we we are spending we, you know is invested in us. You know they’re paying us.
00:41:36 Ivan Mactaggart
And saying, look, you know you are hiring competent people here who are doing things on behalf of the nation.
00:41:41 Ivan Mactaggart
And we’ve got.
00:41:42 Ivan Mactaggart
Highly confident people doing this on behalf of the nation.
00:41:45 Ivan Mactaggart
And spending your tax panels.
00:41:48 Joshua Sutherland
Yeah, that that makes sense, so.
00:41:49 Ivan Mactaggart
Where is the.
00:41:51 Ivan Mactaggart
You know there is a give, yeah.
00:41:54 Ivan Mactaggart
For me personally, I mean.
00:41:55 Ivan Mactaggart
Obviously it it it.
00:41:58 Ivan Mactaggart
It exposed me to a whole whole number.
00:41:59 Ivan Mactaggart
Of things, frankly.
00:42:02 Joshua Sutherland
Yeah. And I think you could always apply this to to any, any field of endeavour that to be involved with your professional institution is likely going to lead to, to.
00:42:11 Joshua Sutherland
Do better things like oh, absolutely.
00:42:16 Ivan Mactaggart
Ask around sort of your.
00:42:18 Joshua Sutherland
Career. So. So right now you work in rail, but you’ve been in in defence and yeah, you mentioned automotive at the beginning of your career. Like, has that been deliberate or that you wanted to be in these different domains?
00:42:32 Ivan Mactaggart
It became deliberate. It’s become deliberate. It didn’t necessarily start that way. It’s become deliberate for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, let’s take the discipline.
00:42:47 Ivan Mactaggart
Of systems engineering.
00:42:52 Ivan Mactaggart
John will tell you sometimes, John hope that is well, we’ll put his. He’s told. You know those steps and and he’ll speak very passionately about systems and he’ll say it’s the application, the implementation of common sense and engineering. Only The thing is.
00:43:09 Ivan Mactaggart
It’s not that common.
00:43:10 Ivan Mactaggart
Hip hip. But there’s a lot of there’s a.
00:43:12 Ivan Mactaggart
Bit of truth in that, quite frankly.
00:43:15 Ivan Mactaggart
But it’s. But if you think about it, it’s systems engineering is not about one domain, it is relevant to every engineering domain you can think of any manufacturing business, production, business infrastructure, you know rail be a part of that infrastructure.
00:43:34 Ivan Mactaggart
It doesn’t matter what man-made systems you’re engaging with.
00:43:39 Ivan Mactaggart
Systems engineering can provide value.
00:43:43 Ivan Mactaggart
So the outcomes that that, whatever business it is you’re in or whatever industry you’re in, that can provide value to the outcomes.
00:43:49 Ivan Mactaggart
That are seeking.
00:43:49 Ivan Mactaggart
To. So for me it’s become a thing. I like to engage with complex problems harder the better the more it stretches my head, the better. I’m grey hair for a reason. I like to say.
00:44:02 Ivan Mactaggart
I’m what that means is sometimes.
00:44:06 Ivan Mactaggart
You know you if.
00:44:06 Ivan Mactaggart
You really want to test yourself as a systems engineer. For me, that means not just sticking to the same domain and say right. Yeah, I worked in atomic work with the function of six years and I worked on DSL works on all sorts of defence type things and other things I went back to a defence company.
00:44:21 Ivan Mactaggart
Then went to or not to the university to come out where I was introducing it from ground up. There’s nothing.
00:44:26 Ivan Mactaggart
There when we are.
00:44:27 Ivan Mactaggart
And then now into rail and my view is if if I have any good at what I do, I should be able to practise.
00:44:33 Ivan Mactaggart
This to a proficient.
00:44:34 Ivan Mactaggart
Expert level in any domain because.
00:44:39 Ivan Mactaggart
The concept of systems engine just makes sense.
00:44:44 Ivan Mactaggart
And and and that’s not now, that’s.
00:44:45 Ivan Mactaggart
What it’s been for me.
00:44:47 Ivan Mactaggart
And so my career has been about.
00:44:50 Ivan Mactaggart
Not necessarily climbing a promotional ladder in one particular organisation, and I absolutely think that’s a fantastic thing to do. For me it’s it’s been more about.
00:45:01 Ivan Mactaggart
How much better as a systems engineer can I be and an engineering leader for that matter, cause it it it extends to both by engaging in problem spaces where I actually really don’t know much about the the engineering side behind it. Yeah, I knew nothing about rail three years ago. I’m not sure I know much more really, right? I mean, I do, but you know.
00:45:21 Ivan Mactaggart
It’s there’s only so much you can really.
00:45:23 Ivan Mactaggart
Learn in three years.
00:45:25 Joshua Sutherland
Yeah, and and for that railway line, I guess to help the audience, this is a a railway line that sort of exists, but is has has gaps in it and you’re throwing them in.
00:45:36 Ivan Mactaggart
Yeah. So yeah, so it’s an incredible project and it’s incredible Systems project.
00:45:42 Ivan Mactaggart
We’re gonna link.
00:45:43 Ivan Mactaggart
We’re going to look at what are we going to link?
00:45:46 Ivan Mactaggart
Oxford and Cambridge.
00:45:47 Ivan Mactaggart
There’s something there’s incredibly compelling reasons to do so. If you wanna go look at East West Rail website, you can see it. There’s a reason it was in the last budget statement. It’s an incredibly compelling project to do to link these two centres of academic excellence, along with Milton Keynes and the Centre, which is was pre COVID, one of the largest Grand cities in the United Kingdom.
00:46:07 Ivan Mactaggart
I don’t, I’m.
00:46:08 Ivan Mactaggart
Not a tech around the area, OK?
00:46:11 Joshua Sutherland
And I was an undergraduate at Oxford, and I used to ride that bus from Oxford to Cambridge. And it’s a very terrible journey.
00:46:17 Ivan Mactaggart
And and so it’s a compelling thing to do and it and.
00:46:21 Ivan Mactaggart
In a different way to overall.
00:46:22 Ivan Mactaggart
Projects. This is not about actually rail movement and rail travel. It’s about releasing economic benefits.
00:46:29 Ivan Mactaggart
Bluntly, and that’s and that means that unlike a lot of infrastructure projects, actually a lot of government projects full stop, this has huge treasury support and and you can see that in the.
00:46:40 Ivan Mactaggart
Press you read it.
00:46:43 Ivan Mactaggart
It’s got so that that’s that’s a compelling reason.
00:46:46 Ivan Mactaggart
For doing it.
00:46:48 Ivan Mactaggart
What’s the compelling systems engineering reasoning? Well, as you. You kind of alluded to that.
00:46:53 Ivan Mactaggart
We’ve got an A bit of railway between Oxford and Bletchley that is under construction. The earthworks were were were mainly there from the old varsity line that existed up until the beaching costs the 6th. So nothing back. What we’ve been able to reuse the bits of railway we could we could use. We’ve put it. We’re putting a new station.
00:47:13 Ivan Mactaggart
In there and.
00:47:14 Ivan Mactaggart
You know HS2 just completed the works and the embankments and the bridges for the overpass of HS2IN in the area. We will cross over. We’re interface with so that that’s all that’s I’m I’m going and that will enter into service within the next year and a bit I think at the moment. So you got that thing.
00:47:34 Ivan Mactaggart
And that being delivered by East West Rail Alliance led by Network Rail capsule and it predates to sort of East West Rail Company sets up.
00:47:45 Ivan Mactaggart
You then build a.
00:47:45 Ivan Mactaggart
Bit, which is essentially Bletchley, to Bedford, the Master Vale line, it’s called it is a small commuter railway. It’s been beset by a number of problems. It’s been.
00:47:59 Ivan Mactaggart
It it’s had basal blossoming now for at least last year about going back into operation again issues with the the company that we’re looking after trains and things like that. So it’s it’s been kind of.
00:48:10 Ivan Mactaggart
A bit of.
00:48:11 Ivan Mactaggart
A mix match for the last year or.
00:48:12 Ivan Mactaggart
So and also it’s it’s it’s slow, it stops every station.
00:48:18 Ivan Mactaggart
It’s a bit sub optimal if you want to.
00:48:22 Ivan Mactaggart
Get a decent.
00:48:23 Ivan Mactaggart
Sort of link hit.
00:48:24 Ivan Mactaggart
But it’s existing operational railway. So you’ve got a bit that’s under construction nearly nearly completing on the back end. Looking through the service, but it is operational, OK, even though it’s not really been running trains for a year.
00:48:37 Ivan Mactaggart
Going back to rolling trains now, I think it started is the fact that has, I think restarted.
00:48:42 Ivan Mactaggart
And then you’ve got this bit from Bedford out to Cambridge, where there’s nothing the old Varsity line, mostly it’s been built over, so you can’t reinstate that. You can’t claim it. It’s not, and then you’ve gotta think about whether it’s, you know, we’ve we’ve had to look at root options.
00:48:57 Ivan Mactaggart
I think I’m sure there’s more. Look at that and look at these. Like, let’s see what all that stuff is. You know, I’m. I’m not here representing these trials, so I’m. I’m not really other than the systems engineering.
00:49:09 Ivan Mactaggart
So when you look at.
00:49:11 Ivan Mactaggart
What an excellent problem space for a systems engineer to be working. I’m I’m I’m blessed to have a small but very, very good systems engineering team. It’s it’s it’s head. The head of Systems engineering in my my the jigsaw there is a guy called Steve Turner.
00:49:31 Ivan Mactaggart
Who is the professional development director for Encoding UK?
00:49:35 Ivan Mactaggart
And you know, he he has a very small but very, very competent team along by, you know, having a partner, which is where most of the systems engine horsepower is done and again so. So yeah, it is a it is and I think Steve sees what I do which is you know when I actually joined us as the head of systems engineering and and now the head of systems and digital and.
00:49:55 Ivan Mactaggart
Another thing is that we’ve got a really good fantastic systems challenge that to be involved in.
00:50:03 Ivan Mactaggart
It’s it’s, it’s compelling, it. It does hurt the.
00:50:06 Joshua Sutherland
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there’s serious.
00:50:10 Joshua Sutherland
You know, interactions with communities and it it is not a pure technical challenge I imagine.
00:50:16 Ivan Mactaggart
No reason you know. You know, I don’t know. Fortunately, I don’t get that involved with with that bit that that’s not my particular job. We’ve, you know, we’ve got a a very gifted team that that work in that communications.
00:50:31 Ivan Mactaggart
And an interaction space. And they do that brilliantly. But you know, just you, you’re. You’re right. The If you look at all the interface points we have.
00:50:40 Ivan Mactaggart
You’re interfacing with.
00:50:42 Ivan Mactaggart
All of the major NS transport mechanisms, yeah, East and West Coast mainline, that’s just two rail ones then the M1, the A1M, the M40. You know we’re we’re meddling in. You know we’re we’re interfacing into the Network Rail area. So as I said.
00:51:02 Ivan Mactaggart
The West Midlands main.
00:51:05 Ivan Mactaggart
The area. Then you’ve got major rivers, granular canal as well. So there’s a whole bunch of environment things in there and we’ve gotta go across. You know, we’ve got interrupted Flood playing within across Bedford and then we’ve got to go to Bedford Town itself and, you know, huge challenges around how do we deal with going into Bedford, St. John’s increasing.
00:51:25 Ivan Mactaggart
City and we’re right next to a major hospital.
00:51:29 Ivan Mactaggart
How? How we’re gonna how we’re gonna handle that?
00:51:31 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, there’s some. Yeah, there’s there’s it’s some.
00:51:35 Ivan Mactaggart
You know, as as systems challenges go, it’s it’s fantastic one to be involved.
00:51:41 Joshua Sutherland
Yeah. And I would encourage any listener who hasn’t looked at a map of the UK, just look at where Oxford is and where Cambridge is, and then where London is and you look.
00:51:49 Joshua Sutherland
At the amount of.
00:51:51 Joshua Sutherland
Infrastructure that must be emanating out of London to the north and inland railway line. It’s crossing all of.
00:51:58 Ivan Mactaggart
That and again, it’s compelling in number of.
00:52:01 Ivan Mactaggart
Just because it’s not just about how you link.
00:52:05 Ivan Mactaggart
Up to the.
00:52:05 Ivan Mactaggart
Cambridge the potential there is to go. You. You can then engage with right at least the ports on the East Coast.
00:52:11 Ivan Mactaggart
You can get down into Wales, you know, down into Cornwall. So you you get a A you can enable it. Truly holistic, East West connection.
00:52:22 Ivan Mactaggart
By having this this, this, this railway, so it’s and that then you know that gives you opportunities to consider and you know decisions haven’t been made on this yet and you know but how you might bring.
00:52:35 Ivan Mactaggart
Bring freight well.
00:52:36 Ivan Mactaggart
Interesting. So you know.
00:52:37 Ivan Mactaggart
It’s there is.
00:52:39 Ivan Mactaggart
A really compelling case for railway it’s an incredibly exciting system challenge.
00:52:43 Ivan Mactaggart
To be involved.
00:52:43 Ivan Mactaggart
In and I’m lucky enough to have been originally asked to lead Systems engineering and insurance. You know, for for.
00:52:50 Ivan Mactaggart
The first year.
00:52:51 Ivan Mactaggart
And a half. And for the last.
00:52:54 Ivan Mactaggart
Almost two years now to to head up.
00:52:57 Ivan Mactaggart
Systems engineering and visual engineering and bring the performance piece in and and sort of we sports teams and and and safety for quite a while that start with the major again. So yeah, it’s been it’s a great. It’s a great time.
00:53:12 Joshua Sutherland
Thank you. So we’re coming up on time now, Ivan, are there any other remaining thoughts you have that you want to share with the audience?
00:53:19 Ivan Mactaggart
I I think you know I would encourage any listener that isn’t a member of encourage you to go and explore because UK encourage you. Just go and have a look, you’ll find a lot of like minded people.
00:53:31 Ivan Mactaggart
For those that are members.
00:53:34 Ivan Mactaggart
Get involved. Get get volunteered to do something.
00:53:38 Ivan Mactaggart
Fall into the bandwidth is is never without reward. You know it is incredibly rewarding.
00:53:45 Ivan Mactaggart
It is a great place.
00:53:46 Ivan Mactaggart
To sort of think about where you want to go in your career and and open your eyes you meet. I’ve met people who now I I consider to be very, very close friends.
00:53:57 Ivan Mactaggart
I’ve been blessed to, to sit alongside and to workshop and to to meet and talk with.
00:54:05 Ivan Mactaggart
Some really, really gifted engineers, you know.
00:54:09 Ivan Mactaggart
And to be exposed to some of their thinking. And that’s definitely have an impact on.
00:54:13 Ivan Mactaggart
The way I.
00:54:13 Ivan Mactaggart
Think so? My you know you whatever you volunteer for.
00:54:20 Ivan Mactaggart
Will be a really exciting thing to do. The other thought I think is the.
00:54:25 Ivan Mactaggart
One that for some reason.
00:54:28 Ivan Mactaggart
I always forget that that we enable to get going in my time, which was I think is the the the real key for system engine and any engineering organisation is is that we we we identified that the Dutch had a Dutch trapped had.
00:54:44 Ivan Mactaggart
A youth division.
00:54:46 Ivan Mactaggart
And David, Vern and who I mentioned earlier is is who is one of my rivals for for presidency at the time and and Kirsty Wallace, who succeeded as President.
00:54:59 Ivan Mactaggart
Hope that and and made that happen and and and enabled the. That’s what we called the early careers form to get going. And now that’s a big thing. And that’s all run by young, young early career systems engineers. It’s it’s not not a youth.
00:55:13 Ivan Mactaggart
Form for us.
00:55:15 Ivan Mactaggart
We recognise that systems engineering is such often a secondary or tertiary career.
00:55:19 Ivan Mactaggart
Work in the UK, but it provides a means for early.
00:55:25 Ivan Mactaggart
Career systems engineers to to get engaged and come and have a look and they have a voice in Council. You know, we wanted them to have the right from the outset. We said when we set this up, we’re going to give them a voice on the Council and they do that.
00:55:37 Ivan Mactaggart
And it’s good.
00:55:37 Ivan Mactaggart
So I encourage if you’re, if you’re listening to this and you’re involved in systems engine in the UK, get involved.
00:55:43 Ivan Mactaggart
In encoding in some way, whether it’s.
00:55:45 Ivan Mactaggart
Areas where it’s supporting professional develop with with Steve Turner you know and and promoting not just chartership incorporate engineer professional registration but the whole concept of certification and like getting involved in that get involved in our events teams get involved you know with all of the other activities we do outreach.
00:56:05 Ivan Mactaggart
Outreach is it’s back and you know, I mean it’s a fantastic thing to look at how we interact with with our organisations.
00:56:11 Ivan Mactaggart
There’s just so.
00:56:11 Ivan Mactaggart
Many things that that you can do in the technical side, you know, you volunteer to do things in the technical side, you get, you get.
00:56:18 Ivan Mactaggart
To work alongside John Holt.
00:56:20 Ivan Mactaggart
Who I think is, you know, certainly.
00:56:23 Ivan Mactaggart
One of the.
00:56:25 Ivan Mactaggart
Most influential systems engineers in this country, I think you know, you know, they’re all. But John has a particular a particular way of presenting systems engineering to the public, which I think is quite unique. Yeah.
00:56:38 Joshua Sutherland
It makes it accessible.
00:56:40 Joshua Sutherland
It makes it accessible to those who.
00:56:43 Joshua Sutherland
Don’t have a computer science degree or.
00:56:45 Ivan Mactaggart
No, they don’t. And and he, you know, he is if there’s a.
00:56:47 Ivan Mactaggart
Compelling reason to go and have a.
00:56:49 Ivan Mactaggart
Look at your home. You know, I mean, there’s a he wouldn’t want to be engaged and want.
00:56:52 Ivan Mactaggart
To do work.
00:56:53 Ivan Mactaggart
In a business where he works you.
00:56:54 Ivan Mactaggart
Know let’s be on this. So you know, just my message is.
00:56:59 Ivan Mactaggart
It is.
00:57:02 Ivan Mactaggart
It’s it’s not a right thing to say. It just changed your life in some respects, but it has in mind, you know, in many ways it’s, you know it. It’s changed my how I think about what I want to do. So it’s been a it’s it’s been an incredible experience. Incredible time.
00:57:17 Joshua Sutherland
Oh, well, thank you. Thank you, Ivan. And yeah, to those listening, please take the advice that Ivan has given us. And yeah, have a great career in in system. Thank you, Ivan.
00:57:28 Ivan Mactaggart
Thank you very much Joshua and whoever you are out there listening in. Thanks for listening and Josh is doing a great, great, great concert here. It’s fantastic.
00:57:37 Ivan Mactaggart
Thanks for calling.
00:57:40 Joshua Sutherland
Great. Well, I hope you enjoyed the episode and just a reminder to sign up to the newsletter on.
00:57:46 Joshua Sutherland
Joshuasutherland.com/newsletter and it will keep you up to date with the latest episodes and other interesting things, and there’s a free gift for you when you sign up. So see you. See you soon. Bye.